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A Christian's Civil Duty

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A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by CheeseKing on Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:08 pm

***Mod Edit***

This was moved from the 9/11 Forum to simplify discussion flow.

***Mod Edit***

I just realized we have a million posts on this subject. I am not about to read this thread, however, because I heard most of both sides and whatever the outcome, its irrelevent. The fact is, we turned from God. Regardless of who the Lord sent to hurt us, we got it and we need to purify our nation while there is time. I see it as a warning. Much worse can happen. God preserved us through all these many years as a faithful nation. We are no longer faithful and we can see the results of that. We christians must rise up and take this nation back before its too late!

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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by YoungStonewall on Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:28 am

We christians must rise up and take this nation back before its too late!

I hope you don't mean literally. Jesus clearly stated that His kingdom is not of this world. We christians, while we should vote and be good citizens, should not seek to control the kingdoms of this earthly realm.

2 Chron. 7:14 "...if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

This is the only way that God will be merciful to our nation. It starts in the seminaries, and in the home.

Until our seminaries stop spreading heresy, and our fathers stop being women, God will not save our nation, and we will got the way of all the thousands of other nations in history.

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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by Legolas Greenleaf on Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:38 am

YoungStonewall wrote:I hope you don't mean literally. Jesus clearly stated that His kingdom is not of this world. We christians, while we should vote and be good citizens, should not seek to control the kingdoms of this earthly realm.

Yes, Jesus said my kingdom is not OF this world. That is an important point. The kingdom OF heaven is a kingdom coming FROM heaven to earth. You're spiritualizing things a little to much. We as christians are to seek to take the whole world back for Our King.
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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by YoungStonewall on Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:18 pm

We as christians are to seek to take the whole world back for Our King.

Yes but spiritually NOT physically. Remember Jesus rebuked Peter for seeking to further the kingdom of heaven with the sword.

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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by Legolas Greenleaf on Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:33 pm

YoungStonewall wrote:Yes but spiritually NOT physically. Remember Jesus rebuked Peter for seeking to further the kingdom of heaven with the sword.

Jesus rebuked Peter for using a sword because He had to die. Peter was seeking to fight back but Jesus knew He had to "Drink the cup the Father had prepared for Him." He was not rebuking him for seeking to advance the kingdom of heaven with the sword. Jesus tells Peter if I wanted to defend myself I could command legions of angels.

In the Lord's Prayer Jesus says, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Clearly we are to seek to see all the world christian. Now it may very well be we will not see this happen till God comes to restore His creation and complete His redemption.
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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by YoungStonewall on Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:05 pm

He was not rebuking him for seeking to advance the kingdom of heaven with the sword.

This idea is so wrong headed I'm not sure where to start.

If what you say is true then why does Jesus say:

Matthew 26:52 "Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.""

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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by TheWylff on Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:09 pm

This idea is so wrong headed I'm not sure where to start.

If what you say is true then why does Jesus say:

Matthew 26:52 "Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.""

For a gunshop worker and someone who has advocated guns numerous times—that certainly is a surprising statement. What do you think it means? Does it mean that you can use a gun but not a sword? Is he banning all weapons?
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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by Legolas Greenleaf on Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:23 pm

YoungStonewall wrote:If what you say is true then why does Jesus say:

Matthew 26:52 "Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.""

I admit right up front I'm not totally sure what Jesus means there. However the next two verses I believe are connected. Matthew 26:52-54 52Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Verse 52 appears only in Matthew which is interesting. In the other accounts Jesus focuses only on the part about needing to fulfill the will of His Father. I think it's possible that this verse could be similar to His "get-your-attention" phrases in the sermon on the mount. This may be similar to the passage about turning the other cheek. If you take that passage by its self you would come to the conclusion that self defense in any instance is wrong. I think that this is a similar passage. However I've not heard any other opinions on it some I'm very open to correction.
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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by BrianEschen on Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:34 pm

YoungStonewall wrote:
I hope you don't mean literally. Jesus clearly stated that His kingdom is not of this world. We christians, while we should vote and be good citizens, should not seek to control the kingdoms of this earthly realm.

2 Chron. 7:14 "...if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

This is the only way that God will be merciful to our nation. It starts in the seminaries, and in the home.

Until our seminaries stop spreading heresy, and our fathers stop being women, God will not save our nation, and we will got the way of all the thousands of other nations in history.

Of course he means literally take back this nation for Christ. How could it be figuratively taken back. We all admit that the problem of this country is spiritual in nature and that the only answer is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The cheese king did not claim it was to be taken back by weapons. What the king of cheese is pointing out that a spiritual change does actually effect change in the physical realm. Can you imagine a country that was predominately Christian yet did not follow God's Word in regards to civil matters? Of course not! It is as preposterous as assuming an individual is a Christian while still clinging on to an immoral lifestyle. Remember that we are to pray God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Has God ordained success or defeat for His gospel? Psalm 2 tells us that Jesus would ask and the Father would give Him the nations as an inheritance. The most quoted OT passage in the NT is Psalm 110 which states that Jesus will be sitting at God's right hand until His enemies are made a footstool at His feet. Where is Jesus now? What are these enemies that are to be subdued under Jesus' feet before His return? So the question remains, "What should Christians do in the civil realm?" Let the humanists and worshipers of Satan rule? Which country would you rather live in, one that follows God's Word or man's?

You wrote regarding swords . . .

YoungStonewall wrote:
This idea is so wrong headed I'm not sure where to start.

If what you say is true then why does Jesus say:

Matthew 26:52 "Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.""

It is both a rebuke to Peter for trying to prevent Jesus from accomplishing His mission (something Peter did from time to time) and a rebuke of the notion that His kingdom could be advanced by the sword. It does not follow however that because His kingdom is not advanced by the sword that it is not advanced at all. Additionally, it does not follow that because our weapons for advancing Christ's kingdom are spiritual that His kingdom is not advanced physically by spiritual means. Again I would point out that while a believer is saved by grace through faith in Christ and not a work of ourselves, it does not mean that the believer is void of "physical" good works.

Furthermore we do know that Jesus is not prohibiting the use of a sword, even in His service. Otherwise, why would He say elsewhere, "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36) Was it to butter their bread?
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Re: A Christian's Civil Duty

Post by CheeseKing on Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:12 pm

Mr. Eschen knows me well Very Happy .

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