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Iraq war - Page 2 Empty Re: Iraq war

Post by BrianEschen on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:04 pm

ElizabethBennett wrote:Ditto what Josiah says. Should we be isolationalist and merely try to keep them from coming in our borders? Or should we try to "nip them in the bud" by going into foreign countries and trying to root out these terrorists?

You can not biblically justify an offensive war. The only permission given for that was the conquest of the promised land. If a defensive war is the only biblically justifiable war, it is much more difficult to go to war.

One question to ponder . . . Why do you think that we are not reading about terrorist attacks in Switzerland? They are closer to the terrorists than we. I've heard of it in the US, England, France, Holland, Spain, etc. but not Switzerland.


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Post by BrianEschen on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:07 pm

There is a difference between isolationism and non-intervention. Isolationism can be compared religiously to the Amish . . . have nothing to do with others. Non intervention can be compared to the different denominations . . . Presbyterians do not tell baptists how to run their church, methodists do not telll episcopals how to run theirs etc. It does not mean that you do not defend against attacks.
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Post by 89whiteandnerdy on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:14 pm

BrianEschen wrote:
89whiteandnerdy wrote:So how do we deal with terrorism if not in the ways already discussed? We can't just ignore the fact that this is a real threat that has been going on worldwide.

Would it really be a threat if we focused on defense as opposed to occupying countless countries accross the globe? Our military is supposed to be protecting us, not other nation's citizens.

I agree with you there.

BrianEschen wrote:One question to ponder . . . Why do you think that we are not reading about terrorist attacks in Switzerland? They are closer to the terrorists than we. I've heard of it in the US, England, France, Holland, Spain, etc.

IMO,
1. They still think of the US as a Christian nation because of our heritage.
2. We are the most powerful nation on earth, and therefore a preferred target.

Isolationism will not prevent future attacks. No, we should not invade a country as an aggressor, but as a counterattack to stamp out terrorists I think it would be the right policy. Now, once the job is done, the troops should come back, not stay as a defense force or occupation force. That's what will stretch our resources and forces to the breaking point, and will also invite the anger and resistance of other countries.

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Post by BrianEschen on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:27 pm

1. They still think of the US as a Christian nation because of our heritage.
2. We are the most powerful nation on earth, and therefore a preferred target.

I will agree with you that, that is a reason why they want to attack us (although not the only reasons). Perhaps a better question would be why are they able to? Again . . . why are other non-most-powerful-on-earth nations in Europe being attacked and not Switzerland? Why did Hitler go around Switzerland? Why does everyone know that you do not mess with the Swiss? Of course I would answer it is because they have a strong defense. It is no mere coincidence that they are the least threatened country in Europe.
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Post by YoungStonewall on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:31 pm

If effort is put inot proper border security etc. isolationism absolutely does work (per Brian's mention of Switzerland). And it has the added effect of not treading on other nation's toes. Therefore less angry nations that want to hurt us.

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Post by 89whiteandnerdy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:10 pm

IMO, there is no effective counter-terrorism strategy that is strictly defensive. It's like playing soccer - if you let the offense set up the play, you're as good as scored on. It becomes a lot harder than if you had broken up the play in the first place. As another example, it's like the same problem the police face - you become a cleanup crew after the damage is done, not damage prevention.

Switzerland is irrelevant - they are not a target because they are not a world power. Terrorists see us as a target because the US is big and powerful.

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Post by YoungStonewall on Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:17 pm

All I'm hearing is more pragmatism not biblical truth. Back up your arguments with scripture.

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Post by 89whiteandnerdy on Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:27 pm

All I'm hearing is attempts to argue without any backing. Provide some refuting truths if you think my views are wrong.

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Post by YoungStonewall on Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:32 pm

Grow up and answer my question.

Show me a biblical mandate that allows our nation to engage in preemptive war.

You can't use Israel as an example because God gave them direct orders to attack and invade certain nations according to His will.

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Post by BrianEschen on Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:19 pm

YoungStonewall wrote:Grow up and answer my question.

Show me a biblical mandate that allows our nation to engage in preemptive war.

You can't use Israel as an example because God gave them direct orders to attack and invade certain nations according to His will.

Of course there is no biblical mandate for that (preemptive war), although I would not say it is an matter of "growing up." sunny A lot of "grown ups" do not understand this and would not even dream of applying biblical law to today's governmental issues. After all the law has been done away with. Wink
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Post by 89whiteandnerdy on Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:33 pm

There is no specific Biblical mandate that I can find for preemptive war. Now answer my question. Can you Biblically disprove the facts that I stated?
89whiteandnerdy wrote:IMO, there is no effective counter-terrorism strategy that is strictly defensive. It's like playing soccer - if you let the offense set up the play, you're as good as scored on. It becomes a lot harder than if you had broken up the play in the first place. As another example, it's like the same problem the police face - you become a cleanup crew after the damage is done, not damage prevention.

Switzerland is irrelevant - they are not a target because they are not a world power. Terrorists see us as a target because the US is big and powerful.

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Post by BrianEschen on Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:27 am

89whiteandnerdy wrote:There is no specific Biblical mandate that I can find for preemptive war. Now answer my question. Can you Biblically disprove the facts that I stated?
89whiteandnerdy wrote:IMO, there is no effective counter-terrorism strategy that is strictly defensive. It's like playing soccer - if you let the offense set up the play, you're as good as scored on. It becomes a lot harder than if you had broken up the play in the first place. As another example, it's like the same problem the police face - you become a cleanup crew after the damage is done, not damage prevention.

Switzerland is irrelevant - they are not a target because they are not a world power. Terrorists see us as a target because the US is big and powerful.

In soccer, you are going after an opponent who is attacking your goal . . . a clear intent that they want to terrorize your goal. That's a defensive war. You are now becoming a terror to those that are terrorizing you (thus fulfilling Romans 13) and if you're good enough at your soccer skills you will dispose of them in 90 minutes by scoring more goals than they. Basketball That is not however what we are doing in Iraq, Germany, Korea, Honduras, Japan, etc. All that to say . . . I think we probably agree but differ on the idea of what constitutes a defensive war. What do you think?

Switzerland is not irrelevant (tag, you're it). Is Holland a world power? Israel? Spain? France? Why the terrorism then? How about the Darfur region that everyone likes to talk about? There you have Muslims killing Muslims (labeled genocide by the creators of genocide . . . the UN). Terrorism does not seem to fit so neatly in the box that has been created. rendeer
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Post by YoungStonewall on Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:04 am

There is no specific Biblical mandate that I can find for preemptive war.

I rest my case. If you can find no biblical basis for what you believe then why do you believe it?

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Post by 89whiteandnerdy on Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:24 am

YoungStonewall wrote:
There is no specific Biblical mandate that I can find for preemptive war.

I rest my case. If you can find no biblical basis for what you believe then why do you believe it?

Arg. *researching, thinking, and banging head against wall*

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Post by YoungStonewall on Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:30 pm

Has your head banging yielded any results?

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Post by 89whiteandnerdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:00 pm

YoungStonewall wrote:Has your head banging yielded any results?

Yes. After considerable research and thought, I have to agree with you that Iraq is an unjust war and that we shouldn't be there. Was Saddam a creep? Absolutely. Is it our job to run his country and try to convert them to democracy? Absolutely not. Not to mention the fact that this war has, among other things, completely ruined our country's economy. We are borrowing money from China by the billions to finance a war in Iraq. Now I can't say for sure, but that doesn't sound like a smart economic policy.

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